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Seedling leaves...
Hello Charles
We've enjoyed some successful germinations of several varieties – lettuce, cabbage, cauliflower, radishes, onions... even some wild tomatoes. We transplanted some seedlings that we thought were becoming a bit leggy, but we're starting to notice that leaves are becoming a paler green (not yellowing yet, but it looks possible).
At this point, we're thinking that it could be one of a few possible issues:
1. ambient temperature – the conservatory can obviously get cold.
2. reduced sunlight – we're trying to compensate this by introducing an appropriate strip light, after reading around on the subject.
3. a possible lack of nitrogen in the soil – again, after reading around, this sounds like a possibility. I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that seeds are not looking for nutrients to germinate, but seedlings obviously need them to get going. We're using a fibre-based, multipurpose compost from Fertile Fibre.
We're interested to know what you might think, and whether you can offer any tips or suggestions. Are there 'cures' for any 'causes'? A lack of nitrogen could, theoretically, be cured by adding chicken manure, but I think that that might be too much nitrogen, unless a very small amount is used.
Also, what's your opinion on ambient temperature for seedlings? Greenhouses will obviously get colder overnight – I would have thought they would also get colder than conservatories (the conservatory being attached to the house). Do you use any methods to raise the ambient temperature – do you think that it's even necessary for seedlings? If so, what do you think is a suitable temperature?
Thanks in advance,
JP
...in addition to my last comment, I forgot to mention that we pulled a few of the cabbages and cauliflowers up, and found that the roots had not grown beyond what they were when we transplanted the seedlings to avoid the legginess. So, we're wondering if we might have damaged the roots when we transplanted them?
Thanks in advance.
JP
You may be worrying a little too much, all seedlings have different colour and lustre of leaves alters with changes in the weather.
On the other hand it is hard to say for sure without seeing the problem. I would wait and see, although you have not mentioned watering and I wonder if you may be overdoing it. Seedlings need almost none, maybe every four or five days unless there is brilliant sun and lots of air moving. Too much water is often worse for seedlings than too little. Wait until the compost is slightly cracking away from the edge of modules or pots before watering again.
Too much water can flush out nutrients unless it is a really good organic compost. But seedlings need hardly any nutrients and you should not notice a yellowing from lack of nitrogen until plants are well grown, almost ready to plant. Temperature affects rate of growth more than leaf quality, in the ranges you have mentioned. My greenhouse was 3C last night and seedlings look fine.
Hello Charles,
Thanks for the reply.
I don't think we were overdoing the watering - I could be wrong, of course. We were misting the seedlings every two or three days, when the surface of the modules started looking drier. As I mentioned, we were using the fibre compost, which seems to be a little misleading when it comes to gauging dampness - as you've mentioned in one of your books. After reading your 'Organic Gardening' book, we had over-watering in mind, so were trying not to get too carried away.
The first batch of cabbages and cauliflowers were sown on February 8th - by yesterday, the first seed leaves on all of them had withered completely. The last time the seedlings were misted (which was before the first post in this thread), it was a cloudy day and obviously some water remained on the leaves - that, to me, sounds far too simple an explanation, but we're having problems working out what went wrong! I have a photograph which I could email you, if necessary.
Apart from that, everything else seems to be proceeding slowly, even though they're all sitting on the heated bench... we think this might just be due to the colder weather... the lettuces, for example, don't seem to have done much in a month! Ours seem stuck at the first seed leaves, with one small first true leaf each...
Thanks in advance...
JP
Johnny SORRY the penny just dropped, look at this quote from the OGA forum, www.organicgrowersalliance.co.uk, worth a look under 'what compost are you using?'. This is from a grower in Aberdeenshire called Wendy Seel:
" I have always used Fertile Fibre general purpose mix. I did not get on with their seed compost, but the general purpose has been good for almost everything I grow. Brassicas seem to do very well in it. Courgettes can look a bit sad if not moved on quickly, and beans, borage and dill don't germinate well in it. Otherwise it does the job. I have not had an issue with variability within a batch.
So, no problems at all - until this season..... The bags smell turnipy when opened, and there is almost no germination of seeds sown in it. Pre-germinated seeds transplanted into ithis batch do grow, but much more slowly when compared to those in some compost I had left from last season.
Fertile Fiibre have been very good about it and are sending me a replacement batch. Apparently the turnipy smell is rape meal (used as a nitrogen source). I know that brassica residues can be germination inhibitors when in high concentrations, so maybe too much went into my batch."
I suspect you have a dud batch as well and contact Fertile Fibre for a replacement, or your money back. I would go for West Riding (Moorland Gold) which has been brilliant for me for eight consecutive years. I use it for everything except sowing lettuce and basil for which seed compost is better, or mix some sand in.
But it is expensive retail, and needs an allotment group or some such to buy a pallet @ £6/sack and share them out, see my contacts banner for their address.
Sorry for suggesting you over water! What you describe sounds good. Now you have lost valuable time but results must be better next time. Faulty products like this are more than annoying, at least the seed was good!
Yup, something really went wrong with one batch from Fertile Fibre this year. We lost most of our bean and courgette plant production. To be fair Matt at Fertile Fibre was very good in the way he rectified this for us.
However, as a result of this poor batch we trialled Fertile Fibre against another organic peat-free compost (not Moorland Gold, which we use in its pure form for ericaceous plants and find it excellent) and the results made me glad I've stuck with Fertile Fibre. You can see comparison pictures at www.gwynfor.co.uk/composts.html
The three subsequent batches we've had since the bad one have actually been the most consistent and best performing growing medium we've ever used. So whatever was wrong in Spring seems to be fixed now.
Hi Steve
I've used Westlands organic vegetable compost for the last three years with no problem. How organic it is I'm not sure.
Pete
Hello Charles,
Thanks for the reply - that's interesting about the Fertile Fibre compost. The lady mentions having problems germinating, which we didn't have - everything, almost, germinated - and pre-germinated transplants did grow, which we found were a problem (if you consider our seedling transplants as pre-germinated, even though they were germinated in FF and then transplanted into new FF modules).
Also, our FF compost included some leftovers - which, now I think about it, may even have been about 18 months old! Oo-er...
We've recently bought a bag of the WRMG seedling compost, so we'll give that a try and see how things go... We're trying to stick to a biodynamic plan - have you tried this method, and if so, do you have any tips to follow or advice on pitfalls to avoid? Or any of the other Moon-based growing methods? Have you experienced any effects of growing by the Moon?
On another tack... what are your experiences with horse manure? We're thinking of trying to use horse manure, and were wondering what differences there may be between cow manure and horse manure - apart from the smell! I think we can only, easily, get horse manure where we are.
Thanks, as always...
JP
Good luck with the West Riding.
I use moon calendars for sowing, with mixed results. Some sowings on non-recommended days do better than expected, sometimes vice versa. But an experiment with sowing carrots on a bad moon day and then on a good one resulted in 20% more roots from those sown a week later on the Earth day.
On the whole I reckon that sowing at the right time of year is most important, and having soil in best condition. Then see if you can fit sowings to moon periods - but which ones? Two days before full moon gives most growth, but we can't sow everything then and quality is another issue...
Re manure, cow and horse are both good, the former has perhaps more nutrients, the latter is softer and often less soggy. Quality depends on bedding used - every batch is different, never a dull moment - and there is also the dreaded question of aminopyralid. With horses, owners cannot always be sure whether the hay comes from grass sprayed with it. Test by spreading a little on soil and sowing peas, if healthy and without leaves curling inwards, even as tiny plants, it is alright.
Hello Charles,
Thanks for all the advice - including the details on the other threads, including 'Steps to victory'!
Our problem with the brassicas is apparently ongoing. We're on our second sowing of cabbages and cauliflower, and the first sowing of brussels sprouts. As you know, we were trying the fibre compost, and we swtiched over to West Riding seed compost.
After the description of our last efforts, we followed your tips and advice, but we've run into the same problem - the brassica seedlings start off looking really good, and we pricked them out and moved them into individual modules just before the first true leaves start appearing. But then, after perhaps a week or so, the seed leaves start turning pale, then start drooping, and then the whole seedling collapses.
We've wondered whether it's the compost (then we changed from fibre to the WR seed compost); we've wondered whether it's tap water (which we then switched to rain water collected in a water butt); we've wondered whether it's the seed (we've used Tamar Organics and Chase Garden organics - the Tamar all come up well, but all die off; the Chase Garden are still with us... just); we've wondered whether it's air circulation or ventilation in the conservatory; we've wondered whether it's temperature or sunlight (we moved them outside into a small covered cold frame a couple of days after pricking them out, on sunny days - we discovered today how hot the cold frame was getting inside); we've run out of ideas!
The seedlings all seem fine, and a nice healthy, dark green, with firm seed leaves. Then we pricked them out, a few days passed, and then they began looking pale again, and began drooping and dying off - as they did the first time.
Any ideas? We don't seem to be able to get these right!
Thanks in advance...
JP and JP's wife
Hi JP and JP's wife,
A late response I know but...
You say...
"we pricked them out and moved them into individual modules just before the first true leaves start appearing."
How did you do this? The reason I ask is that it is usual to wait until the first true leaves have appeared and the cotyledons have fallen off before pricking out.
The seedling is then pricked out by holding one of the true leaves, easing the roots out with a small pointed thing (we use plant labels) and then transferring the seedling to its new home still holding the true leaves. The stem of the seedling is NEVER handled as this is extremely sensitive to damage.
What you describe is classic damping off, which is a fungal disease. We minimise this by using absolutely sterile composts and sterilised seed trays/modules (we use Citrox). Also we never water pricked out seedlings from the top. We always soak transplanted seedlings from the bottom. Then leave them in a well ventilated cold frame or glass house for a week before moving them elsewhere.
Hope this helps.
Welshgrass, welcome to the site and thanks for your helpful comments esp. about the Fertile fibre compost. I know other gorwers who suffered from the bad batch this spring so it is good to hear that is sorted.
Your description of pricking out is different to mine and shows how many ways there are to do things! I always lift tiny seedlings by their cotyledons and always water from above, but sparingly at first, especially if air is humid.
Occasionally I let seedlings get away and prick them out with a true leaf, which also works, but with a little more 'check' on growth.
I had a look at your site and like the sound of those apple trees. Does the Welsh Cox have similar flavour, but presumably more resistance to scab if it is adapted to a damp climate?